Soft spoken. Refreshingly vulnerable. Daughter. Fiance. Friend. Former cult member.
I, like most of the world, was introduced to India Oxenberg through the media firestorm that was the NXIVM story. What began as a multi-level marketing company, ran by an exuberant narcissist cult leader Keith Raniere (who received 120 yrs in prison) quickly yet secretly became a seductive cult, set on subduing women under the guise of self empowerment. At this point I’m sure you’ve heard the horrors of the brandings, the psychological manipulation, and the millions of dollars funneled into the organization by Clare Bronfman (who has received 81 months in prison for her involvement in the cult) of the Seagrams Family. There are two notable documentaries on the cult one by HBO called “The Vow,” the other on STARZ produced by India herself called “Seduced.”
She’s written a book on her experience in the cult, “Still Learning” on Audible, and continues to talk about her experience in the cult via podcasts and interviews. I was taken with the stories of NXIVM, and with India herself, after hearing and seeing how her mother Catherine Oxenberg, leveraged her own fame and notoriety to bring attention to the destructive cult that had taken her daughter under its wing. In previous interviews India has accounted for her time in the cult, what led her there, and the things she saw happen while she was involved.
Everything from forced anorexia, to master/slave relationships in the secret sorority-like group DOS (Dominus Obsequious Sororium), brandings, and sexual predation, she’s spoken about it all. However, I wanted to talk with India about issues I hadn’t seen explored in other interviews. Such as the racial makeup of NXIVM and how its impacted members of color—particularly since Michele Hatchett, formerly a close friend of India’s, is the only member of color of the group. How her forced eating disorder affects her life now, and what the trauma of NXIVM and Keith Raniere’s sinister control has done to her ability to have intimate relationships going forward.
In the few years since leaving NXIVM India has gotten engaged to her chef fiance Patrick, has reclaimed her foodie identity, discovered a love for boxing, and has reclaimed her power. I knew that speaking with her would show me much more that any headline about her dare to, but I also found a kinship spirit. We both have star tattoos on our wrists, and finger tattoos that both have deep family meaning. She’s got a really infectious laugh, eyes that spark with curiosity, and when she listens to you, she really listens! You can tell she carries a new perspective to her life, and that has grounded her in a few people will ever experience.
In my interview with India I not only got answers to my questions, but I saw a depiction of humanity very few get to see. Many would like to believe that the women of NXIVM were simply naive, and no well adjusted, highly educated woman could ever find herself moving in such circles. I myself even shared with India how I initially thought NXIVM was some “white people shit.” When in actuality, it’s clear that what transpired in NXIVM was a betrayal of women’s trust, and abuse of power rooted in white supremacist patriarchal ideology.
by the end of our conversation, what I saw, and what I later came to understand, is how dangerous indoctrination and grooming are.
That at its very core, indoctrination will have you turning your back on everyone and everything you know to be true. And in the end, India’s survival is not only a testament to her, but to the strength of women everywhere.
This is piece of our conversation and the following has been edited for brevity and length.
What was it like for you to see your mom and other outside forces speaking about your involvement in NXIVM while you were still in the fold?
I felt angry, betrayed, and confused, because I was still very much in the mindset and indoctrination of DOS and NXIVM and those beliefs. Which was that this was good and there was no problem with what we were doing and we were consenting adults. And for me when my mom was going out and talking about this in the media, I was like ‘This woman is severely confused',’ those were the types of things I was told but also the thoughts I was having.
But because there was a part of me that was still intact, I thought, this is my mom, how could she be doing that. I wanted to fill in the information for her so that this would all just fizzle out and resolve.
It’s incredible to me that with all of the media attention coming at NXIVM from your mom, that Keith wouldn’t have just let you go from the organization.
{Laughs]. You would think! I wouldn’t have been surprised if some other people would’ve said that, like Nancy Saltzman or Clare Bronfman, but they didn’t because that had a lot to do with Keith and what he believed he could do. He had never been stopped, he had never been accountable, he had never been told no. So I don’t think he thought it was possible that someone wouldn’t let him off the hook.
When I watched your documentary I saw it through two lenses—one as a woman, the other as a Black person. Talk to me about the racial dynamics in NXIVM because I did not see a lot of people of color.
So I will say predominately white. I don’t know the statistics, but I have a lot of opinions on this especially in quarantine I had a lot of time to think, and then everything with our election and BLM it’s brought up a lot of thought on this issue relating to NXIVM. My best friend in the group is Black, and she is still loyal to the group, and she is still in actually. She is and was one of my best friends, and I cared for her so much, and tried so fucking hard to get her out! The fact that she is still loyal to them blows my mind, and it shows the power of indoctrination!
She was someone who grew up in Harlem, studied social justice, had an incredible promising career, she was a writer.
I can’t not talk about Michele because she’s such a key figure for me and I write about her in my book. I wanted to keep her out of ‘Seduced’ because I was hoping that she would see it and leave, but that still hasn’t happened yet. But I still hope it will. As for DOS there were more women of latin descent, only a handful of asian americans, and Michele was the only Black woman. NXIVM as a whole didn’t have a lot of diversity at all. The only diversity came from Mexico [where the organization had a popular headquarter] and maybe people who were at the New York Center.
Honestly, I think a lot of that had to do with Keith because he’s a racist!He would make up different nicknames for people arbitrarily, and he actually made the nickname for Michelle the N word.
I wanted to put that in my book and the editor actually said no because they said it would be too difficult for people to understand. And that’s why when I wrote my victim impact statement and I didn’t have to run anything by anyone, I put it in my statement and said it to his face to call him out for what he is. I saw Allison say it to Michele too. And that was one of the last moments I was in a room with all of them and I think that moment traumatized me more than I thought.
Did you see the impact that this had on Michele?
Yes, but it was mostly through Allison. Keith wanted to stay clear of dirty hands. And Michele really changed. She went from this beautiful vibrant woman who is expressive and into spoken word and just a human being, and she was just becoming gray. And weaker. She was on the same starvation diet I was on.
Her and I experienced a lot of the same punishments, but I think that it did more damage on her psyche being a Black woman having this done to her.
Like, what has happened to her mind to make her still ok with this is what makes me think it’s so psychologically fucked up! She has been so severely abused by this group and these people she thinks are her friends that she thinks these things are good for her. But I don’t know what they did to her specifically to break her because it was very specific and nefarious.
You’ve talked about the restrictive diet you were put on as part of DOS, what’s your relationship with food now?
It’s a process [laughs]. I never had any eating disorder prior to NXIVM and I kind of consider what they did like a cult induced eating disorder, because it was forcing anorexia. So I’ve had to do a lot of work on my relationship with food after. When I left I was kind of still following the diet, but I wasn’t reporting my calories because Allison [her master in DOS] had been arrested, but I still felt very restricted. My fiance is a chef so he’s really helped me. He started to cook for me, and I was scared to let myself eat and enjoy it.
The idea of pleasure and satiation and enjoyment was beaten out of us.
And I realized I wasn’t taking care of myself so I made a choice around my birthday last year that I was going to take care of myself and that included food and exercising consistently. And that this was something I was going to do for myself.
What remains of NXIVM now?
I try to stay out of it for my own sanity, but what I do know is that there is a small group probably 60 people who wrote letters in defense of Keith, who I would consider loyalist, and then theres a smaller group who are really trying to keep NXIVM afloat. So I think they do check-ins, and EMs on each other. So I think they are still trying to defend that the program was good. But what they aren’t able to consider is that, the root of all of the education is Keith, and because he is a predator and all of the things he has been charged of, it taints everything else! So just because one class was good, doesn’t justify the whole organization. So they’re trying to compartmentalize things so they can justify why they’re still supporting, but it doesn’t work like that. You cannot support something where the root of it is tainted and unethical and inhumane. And that’s the diligence of the consumer in my opinion. I feel much more responsible now—-what am I going to chose to support, where do I wanna put my money, where do I want to put me time?
You’ve obviously been through so much, and a significant amount of abuse. How has your relationship with your fiance helped you overcome some of the trauma you’ve endured?
It wasn’t something that I was looking for. I’ve found that my relationship has been one of the most expedited features of my healing. So he’s taught me about what it’s like to have a real partner. And he doesn’t associate me with NXIVM and that’s one of the things I appreciate about him most, is that he just relates to me as me. And he helps me have fun. And being in a relationship with him helps me create vision for my future because I didn’t have a thought of having a family, I didn’t think about getting married. At one point I just thought I’d live in Albany forever. And Patrick really reminded me of all the things I really cared about which is family, and tradition, and love. Even though it has been hard and there are moments where he just has to hold me, I just feel so grateful to have his life and to have him.